iBankCoin
Joined Jan 1, 1970
1,010 Blog Posts

Getting Whipped at The Swingers Club

We often talk about the pitfalls of being stubborn on a trade. Pesky emotions, pesky ego, keeping you from dropping a loser because you have gone and convinced yourself that this stock is worth a billion dollars and you don’t want to admit that you were wrong. Many of us have had to learn this lesson the hard way, multiple times, taking enormous losses over stocks we were sure would go higher. Some even added to their positions as their snowball rolled downhill becoming a larger snowball with a greater loss. But being stubborn can hurt a trader in other ways too. Continuing to trade with a tried and true style that has stopped working in current market conditions can have tragic results.

Swing traders are struggling. If you are a swing trader, you know what I am talking about. The only way you may have avoided this in recent months is to have avoided trading.

You and I are not the only ones having trouble, of course. I just read a note on equity strategy from Citigroup that talks about under-performing equity hedge fund managers who, like the rest of us, are finding it difficult to adapt to a market with no trend. Ideally, we want to find a trend, hop on it and stay on it for several weeks to months, banking egregious amounts of coin, but it simply is not working that way at the moment.

To quote the note, “Fund managers are unhappy. The median global long only equity fund has underperformed this year. The average long/short fund has lost money. It seems that many investors are finding it hard to adapt to trendless markets. Indeed broad stock price indices have largely moved sideways this year, return spreads amongst the sectors and regions have evaporated and price momentum strategies are fading.”

Momentum traders are seeing their positions start out positively only to see them fade within days, hours or even minutes of taking the trade. Many traders are finding themselves dumping losers with 5% losses or more that had started out as winning positions. This brings me to another point, selling is the name of the game. No matter what market you are in, if you can’t figure out when to take profits, you will never make money. Taking a 5% loss on EVERY trade will eventually bleed you dry.

But this is a market that only gives those profits for a day or two and many traders have difficulty changing their style. They don’t want to become…ewwww, gasp, cough, cough…DAY traders. The very thought leaves such distaste in some traders’ mouths that it is akin to being trailer trash. This is the trader who cannot bring himself to take profit within a day of placing a trade.

Unfortunately for us, the analyst who wrote the Citi note does not believe the trendless market will change anytime soon; hopefully he is wrong. But at least he doesn’t expect a continuation the down draft of the past seven weeks saying, “We think investors will have to get used to trendless markets. It is typical at this stage of the cycle, when stock prices Grind Higher with EPS.”

Grind higher? Well there is some good news, if it sticks. It would be nice to at least have a market that grinds higher with EPS. This would definitely be an improvement on seven weeks of dripping lower amidst a lot of indecision. The writer goes on to say that trends can be found in the trendless market and gives his opinion as to what those might be. Finding a trend where one does not exist is no easy task. The current market conditions require the trader to adapt, be nimble … maybe even change his/her style a bit to trade what the market is giving.

The other option is to stay out of the market. This is a perfectly viable option. There are many traders who believe strongly that we should wait for the right market environment. Our old friend Danny, aka: Spyder Crusher, has a market timer to tell him when the environment suits his style or not. This is great as long as you have the time to wait. But it could be a long wait of not just weeks but months at best and years at worst, so the trader must have enough capital to comfortably cover expenses for that long and still survive.

I am not currently in a position to wait that long, so I have to adapt. It took 6 of the last 7 weeks for me to finally figure out how to trade the market we are in, but I had a profitable week on the 7th consecutive down week of 2011, thank goodness, and I did it by adapting and taking profits early.

In this environment, I have decided to take a third to half the position’s profits on the first day…as soon as I have them. Any position that does not give me some profits on the first day, gets dropped before the end of the day. And all swing trades are no bigger than half size giving me a large cash position at the end of each day. Each swing trade gives me SOME profit and I don’t risk turning an initial winner into a complete loser because I have locked some profits in. It’s working….for now.

Each trader can only decide for himself what is the best solution, but one thing I can tell you: if it isn’t working, change it. Face the emotions that plague you and stop being so stubborn. And above all – Good Luck Swingers!

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14 comments

  1. GYSC

    Good stuff. Still, have had my best 6 week span this year, you gotta be able to trade all markets not just the easy ones.

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  2. Iamidiot

    Great article. Know thyself and thine suitable markets. Also, your wrist spikes compliment your wedding band.

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  3. Yogi & Boo Boo

    Thanks @TW. Nice summary of the current situation.

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  4. thewife

    Thanks for the comments everyone. @Idiot – lol.

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  5. SPYderCrusher

    Thank you for the mention thewife. As an aside, The TradeTimer, which is extremely accurate and CLEAR in its signal and intention, has two sides to it. Just because I sit out out bearish periods doesn’t mean someone else needs to. There are lots of short ops.

    ————-

    If I can comment with all brutal honesty and respect, and nothing but good intentions for you, you should stop trading right now UNTIL you have an actual trade plan, which from your post I strongly suspect you do not have.

    Taking profits earlier is fine but it’s related to the SETUP.

    Why were you BUYING stocks in a DOWNTREND for the last 6 of 7 weeks? What SETUP are you using? WHAT CONSTRUCT guided your decisions to do anything?

    —————————> Gut trading is loser trading and it’s a big mistake to assume you “know better.” Gut traders always lose.

    —> Markets change all the time. If you cannot adopt, stop. The market has not been tough. It’s always tough.

    Golf is hard. You don’t need to play Tiger woods to realize that. You can just go by yourself and realize it’s difficult.

    Similarly, it’s a mistake to assume it’s tough for others. NO. Hitting golf balls accurately, in the wind, IS NOT TOUGH for my brother, who regularly shoots mid 70s. It’s been tough for you and other traders who trade haphazardly. It’s been actually pretty easy, and trendy, just this time to the downside (see GYSC).

    The market is never predictably easy. Never. So don’t lie in wait for a 3 month long perfect uptrend. If I recall, MANY here were trying to short or call oversold tops most of the way up from Sept 10 – Feb 11, missing the big move, then once we started getting more rangebound, everyone was clamoring for more rally which never really manifested. A far cry in reality from the hindsight chart everyone pines for.

    The reason why it seems tough is that you’re reading it incorrectly and more importantly, you are using your P&L as a crutch for how right or wrong you are, and lately that’s been quite wrong.

    ———> PROFITABLE TRADING IS THE CUMULATIVE AGGREGATE OF YOUR DECISION MAKING PROCESS

    You are an intelligent person. You should not measure the result of your decisions on PL each day week month. I mean, of course it is relevant, but the numbers will obfuscate your judgement.

    Ask, was this the right trade decision based on my strategy and plan? If yes, then you have nothing to worry about irrespective of P&L.

    If you only have confidence when you win, you’re in for some tough seas. I have confidence in my strategy no matter. Doesn’t mean at all that I’m always right AT ALL.

    ————————–

    6 weeks lower. Boo hoo you should tell yourself. Play the world’s smallest guitar if you have to. If you are even 60% accurate, you should be making money, and that means that out of 52 weeks, 31 are profitable. So out of those OTHER 21 weeks of negative, you’ve experienced 6….what about that is unusual?

    Assuming you had a truly solid trading plan (of which I am unsure) it isn’t working now. Ok we now this.

    —STOP and figure out what about it is no longer working. But don’t change it, who’s to say your off the cuff solution is any better?

    You’ve now adapted your style and it’s working …for now (as you say).

    THIS IS GREAT, ALMOST.

    You should NOT adjust your strategy (which is what you did) but you DID recognize there was a clear problem and made efforts to INVESTIGATE AND IMPROVE. THIS IS CORRECT!!!!

    I think focusing on the positive is paramount and this step is one of the most important ones.

    —————–

    In three weeks, when the market changes again, so will your strategy?

    Do you have the experience and history with your ” new strategy” to see how it fares or will it be like your last “strategy” that stopped working for the past 6/7 weeks?

    If you change your strategy again, you will always be behind the curve.

    Again, I ask, did your last strategy stop working, or did you try and force it?

    ————> IT WOULD BEHOOVE YOU to figure out exactly what it is your doing and when it works best, and only do it then. <————

    "No matter what market you are in, if you can’t figure out when to take profits, you will never make money. "

    Ummm…what was your plan for this before? Why would this component of you plan change?

    In one sentence the problem is you are making bad bets and forcing your hand. Sometimes the wife is killing it, othertimes not. By continuing to trade when you are forcing your hand means you wont have the money or mental energy to get ridiculously positioned when you actually need to be.

    Some bets work better in some markets than others. You are making bad bets for the market.

    ________________

    When people lose money trading, it's from one of two things 99% of the time.

    1.) improper risk and position size
    2.) not following a plan for entry and exit

    You may or may not be guilty of 1, but certainly of 2. A component of your “plan” is when it is best executed.

    Take this quote from one of the most widely known traders, Jesse Livermore:

    “What beat me was not having brains enough to stick to my own game – that is, to play the market only when I was satisfied that precedents favored my play.

    There is a time for all things, but I didn’t know it.

    And that is precisely what beats so many men in Wall Street who are very far from being in the main sucker class.

    There is the plain fool, who does the wrong thing at all times everywhere, but there is the Wall Street fool, who thinks he must trade all the time.

    No man can always have adequate reasons for buying or selling stocks daily or sufficient knowledge to make his. play an intelligent play. The desire for constant action irrespective of underlying conditions is responsible for many losses in Wall Street even among the professionals, who feel that they must take home some money every day, as though they were working for regular wages.

    Getting sore at the market doesn’t get you anywhere. I was only a kid and had a lot to learn.”

    —————–

    You need to heed this advice: If you “have” to trade, stop.

    I wrote this quickly, but I hope that it helps you. I want to be clear that the sole intention of the 20 minutes I spent on this was to help you, not insult. When I say “you have no plan” I’m not suggesting at all you put no thought into it. What I am suggesting is that by virtue of this note you are a bit lost. When you are lost you should not trade. Further, the assumptions you make such as “everyone is having a tough time” and “the market is XYZ” are very damaging to YOU as a trader. The problem is not the other traders, or HF managers, or markets. The problem is YOU.

    Friend 1: “All women are so XYZ. All my GFs are always so xyz.”

    Friend 2: Well, maybe it’s YOU.”

    Friend 1: “My boss is so XYZ. Why are all bosses such XYZ?.”

    Friend 2: Well, maybe it’s YOU.”

    Friend 1: “My trades haven’t been working because of the bernank, hft, whatever. ”

    Friend 2: Well, maybe it’s YOU.”

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    • charlie

      A sincere reply Dany, indeud. @TW what happened to your watchlist emails?

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      • thewife

        Danny – I appreciate your taking the time, however, the problem with coming by and reading ONE of my posts because someone told you that I mentioned you, is that you are getting a very narrow picture. EVERY trade I make has a plan. I am not “gut trading” as you put it. I have been doing this for 5 years and I have learned much from
        @Chessnwine and @Ragin Cajun in the past year. If you had read my previous posts, you would know what I recent went through with @Bill. But you make a lot of assumptions here with only a glimpse of the facts. You have read a book by its cover.
        My risk rules and position sizes are something I talk about consistently. I am not “guessing” that other traders are having a tough time; I am directly responding to comments made in the Pelican chat room. Specific traders know that I am talking to them. I also reaffirmed this with the Citi note that clearly talks about traders and hedge fund managers having a tough time. We can discuss this more later when I have time.

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    • thewife

      @Charlie – I still make a watchlist every night…sometimes it is not finished until the morning, but I stopped sending them out so consistently after the debacle with Bill. I do post regular watch tickers in the Pelican room.

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    • TDL

      “Gut trading is loser trading…”

      Don’t tell that to George Soros.

      Regards,
      TDL

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  6. thewife

    @Danny – do you have an email address where I can respond more cohesively and thoroughly? Thanks

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  7. thewife

    I will also add that saying things like “6 weeks lower. Boo hoo you should tell yourself. Play the world’s smallest guitar if you have to.” does not make it sound like you are not trying to insult me but only trying to help. The nature of the condescending tone has made it very clear that this is not “just to help”.

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  8. hockey guy

    to both thewife and danny: great comments. while you may disagree with the exactness of the process. both of you are very helpful with your insights. i wish i was 1/2 as systematic, and will endeavour to get there.
    last fall i thought my “system” was working while the market went higher. now i’m thinking it was certainly just a little lucky.. but one thing i have figured that both of you hi-lited was that i sold some winners, rather than ride them back to the mean.. for this i have lost less in this recent correction. i sold many too soon, but today it was nicely early.
    i’m grateful for the ideas and honesty.

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  9. thewife

    Thanks @hockey.

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  10. lg

    Spyder Crusher I wish you knew thewife even a little bit. All the time you took to write the post might help others but thweife is nothing at all like have assumed. She has helped so many become better traders. Stressing money management, risk management, rules in which you never deviate. ALWAYS with a PLAN. Thewife is one of the best TRADERS in 12631 or any other chat room I’ve ever been in. I’m a bit confused however. I thought to be a good trader you had to adapt with the markets. It might call for a trader to become more nimble, or to buy and hold, or to hit and run with a trade. I would think you would trade a bit different now then in the beginning of the rally in March 2009. No matter Chess, RC, or thewife will explain it to me. 🙂

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